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#1 greyfox

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:04 PM

I started fishing the lower Beaverkill early in the season with alot of nice big fish with some Wild Bows mixed in, as soon as it got stocked,BAM, nothing but greedy little dinks, if left alone I believe the lower stretches will have a healthy population of hard to catch wild fish like the Eastbranch. I believe studies show there are more Bows already. Why not leave this healthy fishery alone for a while and see where it goes.

#2 Guest_frankm205_*

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:08 PM

Greyfox

it's interesting you mention that. I was fishing at a local stream the other day and the same thing, all stockies when before they stocked it I was hitting some nice holdovers. I wonder why that is? I'm heading to the Beaverkill for a few days on Thurs. Anyone wants to meet up let me know.

#3 fly14

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:28 AM

i agree the stockies definetely put down the bigger wild fish and holdovers....but I will say that most of the big browns you catch were once those stockies too. Not many large wild browns in the beaverkill although many appear to be. If stocking was stopped...those big browns would be gone

#4 partridgecartridge

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:04 AM

Sometimes I wish they would stock rattlers and crocodiles. Maybe a few water mocassins too.

Might thin the crowds out a bit.

#5 Laminarman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:17 AM

Think about this: stocking fish and no antler restrictions go together like peanut butter and jelly. The inital rewards are few, but over time the results are so much better. Sadly I fished at Peekskill or Peeksville? where Trout Brook dumps in on the lower BK. It's a really beautiful spot ruined by worm containers and beer bottles and is hit pretty heavily early on. Second week of the season I fished it for sentimental reasons (one of my first fly fishing outings before puberty hit) and caught nothing in the wind and cold. But there was a dude with two very large trout caught on worms in the pool below the ledgerock. Both I'd guess at 19 to 20". Now don't get me wrong, I hunt and I kill, and I don't begrudge eating some fish, but were there some more policing and restricted take limits it could be a much better fishery.

Let me rhetorically ask this question: How many miles of river are there? Hundreds. How many miles of no kill? Not much. And I bet you see 100 to 1 fly fishermen to bait fishermen after the first week. Senseless that the ratio isn't reversed. Stock the heck out of limited "kill" water for a few weeks and let the rest develop as a no kill fishery and spread out the fishery and the City Hatch. I remember the WB before it was no kill, I could fish alone 90% of the time. Why not spread NKill fishery out? There must be some political baloney I don't know about or biology I'm not up on, but I think the fly fishermen wield the money stick here.

#6 GaryB

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:56 AM

The Beaverkill wouldn't work without stocking. As stated by DEC, maybe 10% are wild. And PartridgeCartridge
you are part of the crowd, same as everybody else.

#7 upinjewett

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:17 PM

Political Baloney is dead on - Put and take is ingrained into the system. Often fish aren't really stocked to seed the streams as much as put in to be taken out. There are many areas like the lower Beaverkill mentioned above that might benefit from a stocking suspension and result study. I help out on the stocking in my hood sometimes, and have to tell you it's a complete fiasco. Half the volunteer stockers are gone after the first hour - They've double backed and gone after the two year olds !!! One reason I like to help out on the stocking other than the entertainment value, is occasionally - just occasionally we can plead with the driver or fisheries official who is there into letting us put 4 or 5 buckets in a pick up and drive up a cow path and actually seed the stream where they won't get hammered. Now why should that be a problem ? They really do seem to want to put the fish where they will be most useful for players in the ensuing worm and fish fry pageant. It's not that stocking is a problem, it's how, when and where they stock that seem be questionable. I'm not a biologist and I realize there are limited resources availible for stocking, but still you would think -

#8 Laminarman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:59 PM

Overall I see the crowds of fly fishermen (of which I'm one) as a type of horsepower that isn't being harnessed. I don't think the message is galvanized that we don't manage our fisheries properly. I'm not exactly buying the 10% wild fish thing to be honest. Not sure why the Delaware has such a better wild trout fishery, seems to me the Beaverkill has great water, great insect life. Now, would stockies hold over? I bet many more would, as in the current NK sections so therefore I think they should vastly expand that. Wouldn't the ongoing costs to maintain it be less as well, with less stocking needed year after year? I have caught some might large trout over the past decades on the "kill" sections where there are supposedly no fish to fish for. I can only imagine what it would be like if the biologists and heads of DEC got their heads out of their butts.

#9 troutpunk

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:39 PM

Think about this: stocking fish and no antler restrictions go together like peanut butter and jelly. The inital rewards are few, but over time the results are so much better. Sadly I fished at Peekskill or Peeksville? where Trout Brook dumps in on the lower BK. It's a really beautiful spot ruined by worm containers and beer bottles and is hit pretty heavily early on. Second week of the season I fished it for sentimental reasons (one of my first fly fishing outings before puberty hit) and caught nothing in the wind and cold. But there was a dude with two very large trout caught on worms in the pool below the ledgerock. Both I'd guess at 19 to 20". Now don't get me wrong, I hunt and I kill, and I don't begrudge eating some fish, but were there some more policing and restricted take limits it could be a much better fishery.

Let me rhetorically ask this question: How many miles of river are there? Hundreds. How many miles of no kill? Not much. And I bet you see 100 to 1 fly fishermen to bait fishermen after the first week. Senseless that the ratio isn't reversed. Stock the heck out of limited "kill" water for a few weeks and let the rest develop as a no kill fishery and spread out the fishery and the City Hatch. I remember the WB before it was no kill, I could fish alone 90% of the time. Why not spread NKill fishery out? There must be some political baloney I don't know about or biology I'm not up on, but I think the fly fishermen wield the money stick here.


You say that the ratio of fly fisherman to bait fisherman is 100 to 1. Most fly fisherman release their fish. That makes me wonder if the catch and release regulation is really necessary.

#10 Laminarman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:17 PM

You say that the ratio of fly fisherman to bait fisherman is 100 to 1. Most fly fisherman release their fish. That makes me wonder if the catch and release regulation is really necessary.


You know, that's a great thought. I never even thought of that. Duh. Great insight.

#11 tele-caster

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:29 PM

I might be in the minority here, but I think the DEC does a pretty good job managing the BK system, especially for flyfishermen … lets start with public access - you’ve got angler parking, PFR access including easements through private land, and miles upon miles of open water from the forest preserves in the headwaters, all the way to the pool @ jaws … just for C&R / FF guys, there are 2 prime sections on the BK and one on the WW – all good water … remember that the catch & keep folks with spinning gear pay the same license fees as anyone else, and these areas are closed to them … and slobs are slobs, regardless of the gear they use - I probably pickup and carry out as much tangled 6X tippet streamside, as I do wormcans, btw …

people’s gripe about stocking and catch & keep, is beyond me … remember that those big smart holdovers were once freshly stocked dinks … despite the holdovers, the BK system is marginal trout water year-round, and without stocking, the fishing would be likewise, marginal … personally, I’d rather see fish quickly killed by fishermen in june, than slowly killed by high water temperatures in august … unless enough of the system can provide cold water to support trout year round, fish will not reproduce or holdover in good numbers … the BK thermal refuge is a great start - I applaud the DEC for establishing this …

while holdovers and some wild fish do exist, to provide good fishing, the system relies on stocking … you can call it ‘supplementary’ stocking if you want, but I believe stocked fish are the lifesblood of the beaverkill today … it is as much an artificial manmade arrangement as the east & west branches of the delaware, which would not exist as trout fisheries without the benefit of bottom release from the reservoirs … ofcourse, the delaware system also benefits form the protected tributaries that lie on the much maligned NYC / DEP watershed land – also open to fishing, btw …

to get natural reproduction going in the BK system would take a concerted effort to protect the headwaters and spawning tributaries - many or most of which are on private land, and real efforts to limit development around and degradation of, the resource … if the headwaters and tribs run cold and steady year-round, the main river will too … but we’re talking coordination with local government, road department, landowners and businesses … can it happen? sure – the snake river in the area of jackson hole is managed as a true wild trout fishery … the spawning tribs, and entire swaths of public land are closed to fishing while the cutts are on their redds … imagine shutting down fishing in trout brook, the upper BK and WW, monguap creek and fir brook – probably half of sullivan county … until enough streamborn fish can drop down from those headwaters and tribs, can survive the summer ( and winter ) in the main BK and return for spawning, a thriving wild fish population in the BK is just not realistic … I would love to see the BK system managed as a wild fishery, but that’s not gonna happen in my lifetime …

I think the weekend crowds are some indication of the success of the DEC’s management of the BK, based on stocking … I dislike crowded water as much – probably more – than most fishermen … I drive, scout and hike if that’s what it takes to get away from the masses … I’ve never set foot in cairns … but, even with the number of people on the water last weekend, I found a nice pool to myself … you’re never gonna please all the people all of the time … but, based on the number of fishermen – especially flyfishermen - on the water this weekend, the DEC must be doing something right …

finally, when you consider that brown & rainbow trout are exotic non-native species, the whole rationale for a state agency like the DEC managing a natural resource within its jurisdiction, by rearing and stocking non-native fish that compete with native brook trout, is an awful strange thing to think about … so, if you’re really against stocking, be careful what you wish for … tele

#12 1lenny

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:40 PM

Hi, Frank. Your PM mailbox is full.
Call me Tom.
I'm going solo up to Willow or BK this Friday. I will probably start at the Willow near exit 96 around noon.
I've been fishing for a few years but the Cats have me beat.
If you want some company, pm me.

#13 GaryB

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:44 PM

Thank you Tele, as usual well said.

#14 Laminarman

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 04:59 PM

Wow Tele, great post. It really is, and something to think about for sure.

#15 woger

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 05:01 PM

Good post tele, I read a good article last year about how rivers all over Montana improved after lower stocking levels and habitat management.

#16 upinjewett

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 09:59 PM

I agree, I don't think there's really a problem with the Beaverkill in terms of stocking, if you wanted to suspend it from Horton to Eastkill for a season or two and see what happens, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. The Roscoe area is one of the few areas in the Cats that's stocked, where fly fishing is actually an economic force. God only knows how many fish go in around there - It's the "put and take" policy on more marginal waters that gets up my nose. Stock those streams - yes -but execute it with regulation on streams where needed, so there are still some fish around to make a go at holding over, even after the Mergansers go through. I guess that's just a wild idea !!

Woger - I could be wrong about this - But according to a FF buddy of mine, who lives in Livingston, There are not lower levels of stocking in Montana, but no stocking at all anymore by the state unless it's a special isolated study. But that's there - not here for obvious reasons.

#17 woger

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 10:12 PM

I agree, I don't think there's really a problem with the Beaverkill in terms of stocking, if you wanted to suspend it from Horton to Eastkill for a season or two and see what happens, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. The Roscoe area is one of the few areas in the Cats that's stocked, where fly fishing is actually an economic force. God only knows how many fish go in around there - It's the "put and take" policy on more marginal waters that gets up my nose. Stock those streams - yes -but execute it with regulation on streams where needed, so there are still some fish around to make a go at holding over, even after the Mergansers go through. I guess that's just a wild idea !!

Woger - I could be wrong about this - But according to a FF buddy of mine, who lives in Livingston, There are not lower levels of stocking in Montana, but no stocking at all anymore by the state unless it's a special isolated study. But that's there - not here for obvious reasons.


That is very possible, I was going to say no stocking but I couldn't find the article I referred to, I didn't want to overstate it completly so I went with lower levels. Regardless it does seem to be the case that habitat maintenance is best for getting a sustainable breeding population.
Another thing I don't get is why are the fish stocked right after the season opens in some rivers, would it not be best to stock a month or so before to give the fish time to climatise?

#18 greyfox

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:46 PM

Thanks for all the input, very interesting. I was actually referring to the lower BK, from Cemetery pool down or around there, as much of a wild trout snob as I am I do not mind fishing for stockies because in some waters they are needed. Plus there is good chance that the stockies from the upper stretches that survive will make their homes in the bigger water.

#19 upinjewett

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 11:54 PM

Lot of Bows down there -

#20 dooberhoopa

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 01:39 AM

I wonder if float stocking would make any difference...a bunch of volunteers with canoes and pontoon boats floatin down the river before it opens and dumping fish in that way




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