[Danceswithcaddis]

I know, no limestones in the Catskills, I hope the mods don't mind. My favorite,(probably because it's the one nearest my house), limestone creek is alive again! Something killed it back in the late '90's when we were having a drought. With all this hot weather I decided to go give it a try the other day and was pleasently surprised at the amount of fish and the various age-classes we found. We did see some real nice 16 to 20+ wild browns, even hooked a couple, but...well, excuses are for losers, right. I don't mind at all when the fish are the ones doing the winning.

This is the target
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/IMG_0114.jpg

This is what they're eatin, when they're not sippin midges
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/IMGP0825.jpg

Here's a jewel, how do you put a price on one of these?
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/IMGP0827.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/IMGP0829.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/ddd.jpg

[tele-caster]

great looking fish ... question - is that an NJ limestoner, or a PA limestoner? scuds are pure protein and calories ... whenever i come across 'em in a creek, i know theres a fair chance of finding a nice fish ... obviously, you more than one ... tele.

[greyfox]

Very nice pics, that is one nice Brookie thanks, is that close to NWNJ I've never fished a limestone and would like to one day

[Danceswithcaddis]

I should have mentioned it's a PA creek. The best limestoner in NJ is the Musconetcong and it's pretty well tied-up private clubs. There is another smaller one in Nj that will remain nameless ;)

[Jaydog]

Nice report and even nicer pics. Was that brookie stocked?

[sight_nymph]

We've got some pretty cool limestoners down here in PA. You guys should check them out sometime.

[tele-caster]

there are actually a few more limestone creeks in NJ ...

while the upper part is freestone, the lower musky is considered a limestone creek due to the springs that flow into it in the 15 or so miles before it reaches the delaware ... there have been significant actions taken in the last 2 or 3 years to protect and improve both access and water quality / trout habitat ... alot of the spots i used to fish 30 years ago, are now posted backdrops to mc-mansions, but there is still alot of open water ...

the pequest is a true limestone creek, eminating from a spring on private land ... it even has a section managed as wild trout habitat ...

the toms river is another ... its in south NJ, and looks like it belongs on long island, rather than NJ ...

there are 2 more very small limestone creeks that i'm aware of in NJ ... both on private land, but with owners that allow access if you happen to drive by when they're around ...

tele.

[sight_nymph]

tele, I'm not saying NJ doesn't have nice limestoners but come on!

Letort
Big Spring
Falling Springs
Big Fishing
Spring Creek
Little Juniata
Valley Creek
Little Lehigh

Just to name a few. We've cornered the market on limestoners down here. Lot's of them and rich in history. The Catskills has it's glory, send a few 'props' and love down this way. LOL

BTW, sink hole in the Letort may open up and swallow the stream. Gone forever. They are trying to fill it w/ concrete to stop the hole from getting any bigger. If you've wanted to fish it but never did, I'd get here fairly soon or it may be gone. If you do fish the Letort, make sure you post a fish tally on here. Let me help... 0 That place is brutally tough. Stumble on the bank and you've just spooked fish for 200 yds.

[tele-caster]

sight-nymph ... no question that PA has more and better limestone creeks, than NJ ... however, what is surprising to me, is that the trout fishing in NJ is as good as it is, given the size & population of the state ... and, that we've got limestone creeks at all ...

this is the 1st i've heard about trouble on the letort ... whats the problem? falling watertable? fracking? please explain ...

tele.

[sight_nymph]

tele-caster, on 29 July 2010 - 12:51 PM, said:

sight-nymph ... no question that PA has more and better limestone creeks, than NJ ... however, what is surprising to me, is that the trout fishing in NJ is as good as it is, given the size & population of the state ... and, that we've got limestone creeks at all ...

this is the 1st i've heard about trouble on the letort ... whats the problem? falling watertable? fracking? please explain ...

tele.

My understanding is that an underground cavern has opened up near the limestone quarry. That way up on the river and would end up leaving several miles of dry streambed if it caves in and swallows the flow. Since the ground around here is mostly limestone, there are underground rivers and caves EVERYWHERE. Once in a while, one will open up and swallow a section of road and the vehicles on it. The town of Palmyra (just East of Hershey) is riddled w/ sinkholes. The problem seems to be worse in areas where old quarries are located. They may have hit the water table and caused the water to rush toward the void. That would cause a raging river underground, severe scouring where the water flows and sinkholes. It’s a shame and I don’t know that it can be fixed. Eventually, I think it will vanish. Big Fishing Crk near Lamar PA has a hole in the streambed. It flows and fishes normally in the spring. When levels drop in the summer, the stream vanishes into the hole and re-appears ½ mile away. It’s strange but very neat. Also helps cool the water back into the 50’s.

[tele-caster]

i've heard that phenomenon before about penn's creek too, which i fished for the 1st time last fall ... seems there are sections that can run almost dry several weeks or months of the year, with lower sections running colder, where the flow emerges from underground ... i once visited the 'spring hole' that is the origin for a limestone creek, here in NJ ... its an open meadow that as a hole in it, with good sized creek flowing down the lower part of it ... another creek in NY state which will remain nameless, has a few areas with caves ... the seeps that come out of these caves keep the water temps @ around 50 degrees both summer and winter ... its tough fishing, and downright dangerous in places ... but the trout are there ...

tele.

[Danceswithcaddis]

Quote

Jaydog
Posted Yesterday, 09:28 AM

Nice report and even nicer pics. Was that brookie stocked?

Thank you and yes, the brookie was probably stocked, although he was paired-up with another one that i would say was a female so maybe there will be some wild brookies in there in the future.

Quote

tele-caster
Posted Yesterday, 12:32 PM

there are actually a few more limestone creeks in NJ ...

while the upper part is freestone, the lower musky is considered a limestone creek due to the springs that flow into it in the 15 or so miles before it reaches the delaware ... there have been significant actions taken in the last 2 or 3 years to protect and improve both access and water quality / trout habitat ... alot of the spots i used to fish 30 years ago, are now posted backdrops to mc-mansions, but there is still alot of open water ...

the pequest is a true limestone creek, eminating from a spring on private land ... it even has a section managed as wild trout habitat ...

the toms river is another ... its in south NJ, and looks like it belongs on long island, rather than NJ ...

there are 2 more very small limestone creeks that i'm aware of in NJ ... both on private land, but with owners that allow access if you happen to drive by when they're around ...

tele.

As far as this post is concerned, well, let's just say I disagree with just about all of it. Non of Pequest is being "managed" for wild trout. Just because it starts as a spring doesn't make it a limestoner. But at least it does run through limestone rock formation, unlike Toms River which is miles away from the limestone formation that runs across the Northwestern portion of the state. Limestone creeks don't freeze. I have ice-skated from Bloomsbury to Reigelsville on the Musconetcong River, where, by the way, I have spent most of my waking moments these 54 + years I've been on this earth, and I can't for the life of me think of a Mcmansion that would impact accessability to the river. I'm sure there are literally hundreds of springs in all the streams of NW NJ that are micro-limestone envirnments. But as far as what most people would consider classic limestone creeks, the Musconetcong, from Asbury to Bloomsbury is the best NJ has.Below is a pic I snapped today of the area I'm talking about,(sorry about the low-quality). Kinda looks like central PA.
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Owlgrowler/v.jpg

[tele-caster]

dances … I must respectfully counter, that what I know about the pequest river, is based on what I’ve read, seen and fished … the valley that shares its name rests above a limestone formation, and the water that forms the stream, comes out of a hole in this formation … while I’m not a geologist, I believe this description satisfies the definition of a limestone stream … I think its sufficient criteria to meet this definition, by a fisherman ... at least this fisherman

In NJ, a designated TCA ( trout conservation area ) is about as close as we come to protecting trout populations – stocked or otherwise - through ‘special regs’ management … the pequest TCA is in the vicinity of the pequest hatchery … it is very nice water

I agree that the toms is not a limestone creek … again, I am not a geologist ... I believe its aquifer source is via sandstone along the coastal plain, and is more akin to that of the connetquot and carmans, which is why I mention long island … to me, the toms looked, felt and fished like the LI streams mentioned ... and while i’ve fished the toms a few times, its just not my cup of tea ... whether or not it is from the same geologic origin as those on LI, is beyond me

Water freezes @ 32 degrees F, regardless of its source … the creek that I mentioned ( located in new york, if you care to re-read the post ) that is heavily influenced by caves is mentioned in the context of the mediating temperature effects of underground flow of water … i would think that the flow would freeze and 'lock-up' underground, during the winter, but i've never seen this ... when hiking the area in winter, I am always amazed to see that the seeps stay ice free for several feet or yards before they join the main 'creekbed' … eventually, the surface freezes, but the creek flows under the ice … I don’t typically carry a thermometer with me when hiking, so I apologize if my 50 degree estimate is off by a few degrees … and even if I knew how, I wouldn’t iceskate, there …

I am happy to hear that the areas of the musky that you fish, are still open to the public … the last time I drove up that way, areas I had fished in my youth, are now posted, and farms have been replaced with rather large homes that look boringly similar … while I completely agree that the land is still beautiful, in my opinion, it was more beautiful 35 years ago, when viewed through the eyes of a 9 year old cityboy … you may feel otherwise ...

A final counter regarding … ‘I know, no limestones in the catskills’ … one can argue as to where the catskills actually begin and end, but I believe most of us would consider the Schoharie creek to be a catskill fishery … the sources of several tributaries of Schoharie creek are spring holes and caves in the same limestone formation that towers above ones head, on the drive through schoharie county to the reservoir … while most of these creeks are small and many are posted or on city watershed land, these tribs hold trout … I’d be happy to introduce you to these waters, some day …regardless, if you ever find yourself in the vicinity, hike up vroman’s nose, and take in the views and look for the nesting pair of falcons … perhaps you’ll find the Schoharie valley as beautiful, as I do …

btw, i agree with others here - very nice brookie ... tele.

[GaryB]

Tele,

In Jersey and the southern area of NYS the maximum frost depth is about 3 feet. That's with a
really bad winter. So any underground streams/springs are not affected. That's why a true limestone
remains in the same water temperature range thru out the year.

[tele-caster]

gary - yep ... i rely on an old dug well on property in NY state, using the bucket and rope technique, during the coldest nights in february ... i can grasp the concept of underground water movement, springs and aquifers and such intellectually, but its still pure magic to me, to see cold clean water pouring up, out of a hole in the ground ...

tele.

[Danceswithcaddis]

I didn't start posting on this forum to get into debates. But if somebody comes on my thread, disputes what I've written with false information, I'm going to call them out. As a matter of fact, since a lot of people come on these threads to learn, we should all do the same.

The bottom line is; if a guy wants a true "Limestone experience" he should do what Sight Nymph suggests. Go to central PA, State College area, Carlise area, lots of flyfishing history,(re-read In the Ring of the Rise before you go), visit some of the famous fly shops out there. And the best time to go? Winter. March. Right when cabin fever is at it's worst. The streams are open and the trout are active.

Tele, thanks for the invite, I'll be taking you up on that in the not to distant future. FYI, the Pequest river has 2 sources at it's head that come together to form the river. One side drains a pond, Stickles Pond I believe, the other is a spring that starts on public land, Whittingham Wildlife management Area. I've been there a hundred times for the Appalachian bow shoots and never realized that that was the headwaters of the Pequest. One more thing, if you look at page 20 of the NJ Fish and Wildlife Digest you'll see the listing for Wild Trout Streams with their own set of special regulations. The TCA you mentioned is kind of a joke as it's seasonal, a lot of necks get broken in there. If you have never been to the Letort, maybe this winter we could get together and fish it,(be humiliated) before it disappears. Peace Brother.

[Flyman]

Sight nymph,

What makes you say the Little J is a limestone stream? I've always considered it to be a classic freestoner? Cobble bottom, good clarity, typical freestone insect life.

[GaryB]

A true limestone doesn't need to cool down, they have a consistent temperature thru out the year.

[Danceswithcaddis]

In A. Joseph Armstrong's book Guide to Pennsylvania Limestone Streams he states that the Little Juniata River from Tyrone to below Spruce Creek is in a limestone belt with enough cold seeps to maintain good water temps through the summer.

[Flyman]

There is another forum with many members living in the central portions of PA. Quite a few live, and fish, the Little J, the public portions of Spruce Creek, and other nearby waters. I saw this thread a few days ago and went to the forum to make an inquiry regarding whether the LJ is limestone or freestone. Some posters said the LJ starts out as a freestone but then becomes a limestone. Others had different opinions. It does flow through an area with high limstone bluffs but that doesn't necessarily make it a limestome srtream. Isn't the true determination of whether a body of water is freestone or limestone based on the PH factor and the alkalinity/acidity of the water? BTW water temperature has little, to nothing, to do with whether a river or stream is limestone. Penns Creek would be considered by most fly anglers to be a limestone stream yet the water temperature is often in the low to high 70's depending on the ambient air temperature. One poster on the other forum mentioned that a few months ago he got a temperature of 70 degrees in a section of the LJ a few miles below where Spruce Creek enters the stream. He postulated that based on the ongoing high air temperatures the LJ is likely in the high 70's to low 80's water temperature now. If anyone wishes to follow that thread PM me and I'd be glad to give you the link.


In Dwight Landis's book "Trout Streams of Pennsylvania" he writes on page 104 "In the summer months water temperatures rise on the Little Juniata, but good fishng can still be had at dusk, in the early morning, and at night. Temperatures can reach the low 70's to mid 70's during the summer in the lower river." He goes on to say "Temperatures in the upper river can get quite warm."